Why Great Employees Don’t Always Make Great Managers

John Jantsch (00:01.683)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Date Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Ashley Herd. She’s the founder of Manager Method and a former head of HR for McKinsey. She’s known for her practical real-world approach to leadership, helps managers build their skills they need to lead confidently, support their teams and get results without burning people out. We’re gonna talk about her new book, The Manager Method, a practical framework to lead, support and get.

So actually welcome to the show.

Ashley Herd (00:32.93)

Thank you so much, John. So glad to be here. Love the podcast.

John Jantsch (00:36.143)

So most of the managers I know become managers by accident. That’s a typical company. It’s like, you’re the best salesperson. You’re now the sales manager. what problems do you see that that dynamic kind of creates for organizations? mean, is there a better, more practical way to actually create managers?

Ashley Herd (01:02.158)

I think there is. mean, one is that’s often the case. In sales is the perfect example of that because it is the place where I think it can be the hardest mindset. Maybe marketing too, because it’s very creative. But when you have sales in particular, you’re super competitive, you’re used to be a number one. All of a sudden you’re promoted to sales manager, often because organizations think they’re great, they’ll teach everybody win-win. We’re going to turn everyone into little versions of them. Then all of sudden they become a manager.

John Jantsch (01:03.878)

me.

Ashley Herd (01:28.312)

They’re not used to sharing their tips. They don’t remember how they first got started. They’re coaching poor performers that they have no empathy for whatsoever. And now they’re dealing with time off issues, people issues, all of these people things. It often that win-win really quickly becomes a lose-lose. And so I do think it’s important for organizations to really think about career paths. mean, sales is one in particular. Now, I think you see plenty of individuals that have been an individual contributor in sales and have thrived in it.

or that have gone into a sales manager role and happily gone back into an individual contributor role. And so some of it is thinking about who really is interested in becoming a manager, but developing people and giving them the tools. mean, the first tale of Zoldyf’s time I see is people promoted just because they’re good at their job. The second is people promoted and then you don’t get any sort of resources and training to actually know how to coach and delegate, understand why those matter and how to do them and how to think about.

the people issues that all of sudden they’re popping up that you have no idea what to do with.

John Jantsch (02:28.595)

There’s a, I don’t know if you’re a baseball fan, but this is a really common thing in a lot of sports. The best managers were never the best players. They were usually like second string catcher that just like watched the game and saw every angle of the game. know, but the superstars actually didn’t make great managers because they were used to having everybody carry their bags for example. So does that dynamic kind of play out in sort of the manager in a business?

Ashley Herd (02:36.278)

Yes.

Ashley Herd (02:55.066)

It does. it’s the same when you see that with coaches. The other day I was just watching Packers Bills and so they said neither Josh Allen nor Aaron Rodgers. They hadn’t even as individual contributors, they hadn’t gotten D1 scholarships. So people can be developed over time and managers, absolutely see that. And so I think that absolutely resonates because one of the things that I say sometimes, one is if you’re thinking about becoming a manager, go in your local community Facebook group and just look at the discussions that go on and think,

what I want to manage those people in the workplace. And if you have some interest in it, then you’re probably set out to be a manager because you’re going to work with those different people dynamics. But the second is, what’s important to you? Is it your gold stars, your recognition, or is it about your teams? Because I actually think it’s really OK for a lot of people. They realize through this process how much individual recognition means to them. And that’s where it can be important to that

As a manager, you can really shift. And so all of a sudden giving people, giving other people kudos, talking about their names, a really easy trap for people is to think, well, if I start doing that, all of sudden I’m not needed. And they don’t realize that one of the best things that can happen is for senior leaders to know all different names of the people on your team. And they come first to mind rather than you because you’re creating those pathways and getting the results that matter and building those careers as well.

John Jantsch (04:20.947)

So this is ostensibly a marketing show, but I have anything that has to do with business, to me, relates to marketing. So I have a lot of leadership book authors. I have a lot of management book authors on this show. So when you set out to write this book, did you say to yourself, here’s the gap that I’m going to fill? Like, here’s what nobody else has figured out and written about?

Ashley Herd (04:41.582)

Well, of course I did, because everyone thinks that way, John. But what I saw, my path was a little unique. started in sales. I actually started, like when I talk about sales, I was in a very high pressure corporate sales role, cold calling CFOs to start with, long before I went into legal and HR. And so I have a sense of what it can be like working in some of those different functions. But what I saw frequently, whether sales or legal or HR, often it wasn’t

managers doing the wrong thing or saying the wrong thing necessarily. It was managers that didn’t know what to do. And so they weren’t giving feedback to their team members. They weren’t having conversations. They really weren’t. And so what I set out to do was really to help have a practical way to think about your team, think about results, but also give ideas of what to do and say in situations. That can be a lot easier for someone to take an example and put that into their own voice. And that’s the gap that I was really trying to fill with the manager method.

John Jantsch (05:39.709)

So I often say this about a lot of situations that the key to success is usually expectations. And you write in the book about the idea that clear expectations is one of the foundational elements. But that’s one of those things that you can say clear expectations. And that’s going to mean 100 things to 100 different people. And most of us probably just have our default. It’s like, well, yeah, I told them to get the job done.

wasn’t that clear? Right? So how do you help people kind of become, know, clearer when their kind of default personality is, doesn’t everybody get it?

Ashley Herd (06:21.326)

It’s great. mean, I clear expectations is very similar to strategic in these terms that people are told you need to do, especially as a manager, whether you’re hiring your first team member or you have a group. But clear expectations, I think it’s really important to break that down into a conversation. so ways I do that, and one resource that you’ll see on the site as part of the book, is to have that conversation with your teams of literally breaking it down. This is how your role plays into the overall organization. If you do well in it,

This is how it impacts others. And if you don’t, for some reason, this is how it impacts others as well. Now, clear expectations, this is whether you can quantify things. Like if you’re in sales, for example, like, OK, your book is, you you’re supposed to bring in 750K a year. And that’s where a lot of sales leaders in particular stop. They give you your goal, you move on with life. OK, now I’m going to scramble and do everything I can call every relative I’ve ever heard of to try to make that happen. But so the part of clear expectations is that conversation of

Here are things you can do. Here are tips from others. This is what you can figure out for yourself, and this is the support that you’ll have. It’s putting the layers beneath that. To say to someone, for example, if on Monday, okay, your goal is 15K this week to bring it in. And then it’s having the conversation and saying, what are you going to be doing on Tuesday? What’s Wednesday going to look like? And what about Thursday that can make that happen? What could possibly get in the way?

that could hurt that. What can you do to prevent that? And so it’s having some of those additional questions and conversation to really have it bring it to life rather than just saying the goal and having them figure out the what, where, how, why, and everything else in between.

John Jantsch (07:59.827)

And that kind of goes both ways though, right? I mean, it’s on that person who’s being told what the expectation is to say that’s not realistic, right? I mean, to have that dialogue. And I think that’s where sometimes, I know in my own experience where, you know, I’ve set what I thought were clear expectations, the person on the other side is saying that they can, wait, that’s gonna happen, but they don’t tell me. And so all of sudden, again, it’s like neither of us are meeting the right expectations. So.

Ashley Herd (08:19.917)

Yeah.

Ashley Herd (08:25.583)

Yeah, I think it’s true. And I’ve seen it in some ways, like when I was a lawyer, for example, people would say this and say, OK, we need we need this contract. We need this contract negotiated right now. Today we need it signed. I say, OK, well, this other side’s had it for about two months and you’re giving it to me. And again, what I can do is this is really important to move around or not. What also is in little teeny tiny print at the bottom that you don’t see, because like the CEO says it’s important. I’m like, OK, but we also want to have credibility. And so if all of a sudden we’re turning things around, it can make us look

whether it’s desperate or now this is something that’s not a priority, it’s being able to have those conversations. And for me, some of the best working environments, whether it’s a small team or large, is being able to have that two-way street and talk about what else is going on and not just saying yes and sacrificing your life to get it done.

John Jantsch (09:11.323)

So you just slipped in another career actually. How many careers have you had?

Ashley Herd (09:15.437)

Well, in the book, John, I call it a career quilt. mean, those that, especially those, you know, those that are that are working with your fractional CMO agency system and that, you people often and now more than ever, I do think are trying to figure out what do I want to do when I grow up, whether you are five years old or you are 75 years old and trying to figure those things out. And so, you know, I I had I probably thought for a while I would be a lawyer, but it was the things that I learned.

Right now, what I do is I post videos on social media because I have thick skin from cold calling CFOs. And so those comments don’t hurt me like they may not have if I didn’t get hung up on the phone by CFOs. so having that background of legal where things go wrong, sales of understanding revenue and the pressures people are under, NHR about really how to harness the power of people and importance on people’s work and life, those have led me to where I am today, my very unique career quilt.

John Jantsch (10:14.163)

So let’s get down to one of the, probably the biggies for lot of managers, the one-on-one meeting. And I hate to do this, but I’m just gonna use myself as like you’re a bad example for how to fix this. But a lot of my one-on-ones end up turning into status reports. It’s like, here’s all the stuff. where are we on this? Where are we this? And then there’s no time for like, what do you want out of your career?

you know, kind of conversation. how important is it that you have those separate meetings, that you have that one-on-one that really drives engagement?

Ashley Herd (10:50.607)

I think a one-on-one is really important to get work done. And it’s so much more important for your team member than you sometimes realize. What I see frequently in my very scientific comments on social media, if I do a video on one-on-ones, people will say, I don’t even know what that is. My manager never shows up to them. Or if they show up, they’re 25 minutes late to a 30 minute meeting. And so for team members, it actually really is a signal. If you as a manager, you make that time and you show up on time, barring emergency or on, it sends such a strong signal, just that.

John Jantsch (10:57.128)

me

Ashley Herd (11:20.143)

aspect alone because often your team members, especially if it’s really stretched out your one-on-one time, they may have 37 things on their list and they’re just dying to get through it. But it really is a balance. One thing that can help is having, whether it’s a shared agenda or a shared document between those. the status, because it is important to know where things are. But if you use that and it can t

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